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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
JeZ-l-Lee


Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 572
Location: Long Island, New York, United States, Earth
Hi,

Any plans to port SDL to Google's Android OS used in SmartPhones?
Just wondering, as there is an iPhone port already.
Thanks!


Jesse

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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Sam Lantinga


Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 1765
There is apparently a port of SDL 1.2 to it, and I've asked the author
if he's interested in porting 1.3, but I haven't heard back.

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Jesse Palser wrote:
Quote:
Hi,

Any plans to port SDL to Google's Android OS used in SmartPhones?
Just wondering, as there is an iPhone port already.
Thanks!


Jesse

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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Bill Kendrick
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On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 09:27:37PM -0800, Sam Lantinga wrote:
Quote:
There is apparently a port of SDL 1.2 to it, and I've asked the author
if he's interested in porting 1.3, but I haven't heard back.

Based on what people know of the Android platform, how difficult
does it seem to port an SDL app to an Android device? Is it possible
to actually run an _app_ under the NDK (native development kit), or
is the NDK really just for porting libraries (e.g., so you do your
crazy math in C rather than in JITless Java)

-bill!
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

Quote:
From what it says here, you cannot build complete applications C.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-15-ndk-release-1.html

The official language is still Java.

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 09:27:37PM -0800, Sam Lantinga wrote:
Quote:
There is apparently a port of SDL 1.2 to it, and I've asked the author
if he's interested in porting 1.3, but I haven't heard back.

Based on what people know of the Android platform, how difficult
does it seem to port an SDL app to an Android device?  Is it possible
to actually run an _app_ under the NDK (native development kit), or
is the NDK really just for porting libraries (e.g., so you do your
crazy math in C rather than in JITless Java)

-bill!

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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Max Horn
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Am 13.01.2010 um 19:27 schrieb Paulo Pinto:

Quote:
Quote:
From what it says here, you cannot build complete applications C.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-15-ndk-release-1.html

The official language is still Java.

Well, there exists a (currently unofficial) port of ScummVM to
Android. Since ScummVM is C++, it apparently *is* possible.

See also <http://sites.google.com/site/scummvmandroid/>.

Cheers,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

I don't have any android experience, but wouldn't this only run in rooted devices most likely?

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Max Horn wrote:
Quote:

Am 13.01.2010 um 19:27 schrieb Paulo Pinto:

Quote:
>From what it says here, you cannot build complete applications C.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-15-ndk-release-1.html

The official language is still Java.

Well, there exists a (currently unofficial) port of ScummVM to Android. Since ScummVM is C++, it apparently *is* possible.

See also <http://sites.google.com/site/scummvmandroid/>.

Cheers,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Marcel Wysocki
Guest

On 01/13/2010 09:25 PM, Max Horn wrote:
Quote:

Am 13.01.2010 um 19:27 schrieb Paulo Pinto:

Quote:
Quote:
From what it says here, you cannot build complete applications C.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-15-ndk-release-1.html


The official language is still Java.

Well, there exists a (currently unofficial) port of ScummVM to
Android. Since ScummVM is C++, it apparently *is* possible.
iirc the author did compile whole scummvm into a shared object and uses
jni to start it.
thats really the only way to get c/c++ apps running on the android,
unless its rooted of course
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nfries88


Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 100
from my understanding, Android will run any native code through JNI.

So, as was said above, it'd need to be compiled to a .so and run through JNI. Doing so doesn't decrease performance at all, or I wouldn't think so at least, and I think that the NDK does this for you automatically (although I haven't tried anything yet).
Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Sam Lantinga


Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 1765
People are actually using SDL on the Android right now:
http://jiggawatt.org/badc0de/android/index.html


On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:25 PM, nfries88 wrote:
Quote:
from my understanding, Android will run any native code through JNI.

So, as was said above, it'd need to be compiled to a .so and run through
JNI. Doing so doesn't decrease performance at all, or I wouldn't think so at
least, and I think that the NDK does this for you automatically (although I
haven't tried anything yet).
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Marcel Wysocki
Guest

On 01/14/2010 06:01 AM, Sam Lantinga wrote:
Quote:
People are actually using SDL on the Android right now:
http://jiggawatt.org/badc0de/android/index.html

yes, but this approach will not work on stock phones.

http://gimite.net/en/index.php?Run%20native%20executable%20in%20Android%20App
this is another approach to run native apps on android,
didnt test it yet but looks promising and should work on unmodified
phones too
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Max Horn
Guest

Am 13.01.2010 um 21:37 schrieb Paulo Pinto:

Quote:
I don't have any android experience, but wouldn't this only run in
rooted devices most likely?

No. ScummVM is available through the Android store for any android
phone, not just rooted ones.

As others explained, the trick is to use JNI; this is in fact
explained in the FAQ of the page I gave the link to.


Bye,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Simon Roby
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Using JNI on Android is generally discouraged by Google though,
because Android was designed so that the application layer is
independent of the CPU architecture. By bypassing the managed VM and
running native code (ie. what JNI does) you are violating that
principle.

Of course, most (if not all?) of the Android devices on the market are
ARM right now, but if that ever changes...

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 18:25, nfries88 wrote:
Quote:
from my understanding, Android will run any native code through JNI.

So, as was said above, it'd need to be compiled to a .so and run through
JNI. Doing so doesn't decrease performance at all, or I wouldn't think so at
least, and I think that the NDK does this for you automatically (although I
haven't tried anything yet).
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Max Horn
Guest

Am 14.01.2010 um 22:40 schrieb Simon Roby:

Quote:
Using JNI on Android is generally discouraged by Google though,
because Android was designed so that the application layer is
independent of the CPU architecture. By bypassing the managed VM and
running native code (ie. what JNI does) you are violating that
principle.

Sure, but it's either that, or not running on that platform at all for
the majority of existing programs. So, while it may not be "pure" with
regards to this principle, it's still a great way for many apps to be
ported to Android -- I certainly prefer impure applications over non-
existing ones :-). In our case, it's just not feasible to rewrite a
600,000 line C++ app in Java with limited man power, let alone keep
that rewrite in sync with the regular version :-).

Not to forget that in reality, very often Java programs still need to
be adapted to new platforms ...

Quote:

Of course, most (if not all?) of the Android devices on the market are
ARM right now, but if that ever changes...

... then one also provides versions for the new CPUs Smile

Cheers,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

I don't have any prejudice against Java, but does anyone know if Google is ever going to add JIT to Dalvik?

Without it, I wonder how fast you can really code games for Android.

My mobile phone has Symbian and the ARM processor provides Jazelle support, so althought the games aren't as
fast as pure native ones, they are quite fast already.

Now I wonder about Android phones.



On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Max Horn wrote:
Quote:

Am 14.01.2010 um 22:40 schrieb Simon Roby:

Quote:
Using JNI on Android is generally discouraged by Google though,
because Android was designed so that the application layer is
independent of the CPU architecture. By bypassing the managed VM and
running native code (ie. what JNI does) you are violating that
principle.

Sure, but it's either that, or not running on that platform at all for the majority of existing programs. So, while it may not be "pure" with regards to this principle, it's still a great way for many apps to be ported to Android -- I certainly prefer impure applications over non-existing ones :-). In our case, it's just not feasible to rewrite a 600,000 line C++ app in Java with limited man power, let alone keep that rewrite in sync with the regular version :-).

Not to forget that in reality, very often Java programs still need to be adapted to new platforms ...

Quote:

Of course, most (if not all?) of the Android devices on the market are
ARM right now, but if that ever changes...

... then one also provides versions for the new CPUs Smile

Cheers,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Alan Carr
Guest

Paulo,

which JDKs you know of use Jazelle support? I'm not aware of any active ones... I've searched before but came up empty!

-Alan

On 1/14/2010 2:25 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
I don't have any prejudice against Java, but does anyone know if Google is ever going to add JIT to Dalvik?

Without it, I wonder how fast you can really code games for Android.

My mobile phone has Symbian and the ARM processor provides Jazelle support, so althought the games aren't as
fast as pure native ones, they are quite fast already.

Now I wonder about Android phones.



On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Max Horn wrote:
Quote:

Am 14.01.2010 um 22:40 schrieb Simon Roby:

Quote:
Using JNI on Android is generally discouraged by Google though,
because Android was designed so that the application layer is
independent of the CPU architecture. By bypassing the managed VM and
running native code (ie. what JNI does) you are violating that
principle.

Sure, but it's either that, or not running on that platform at all for the majority of existing programs. So, while it may not be "pure" with regards to this principle, it's still a great way for many apps to be ported to Android -- I certainly prefer impure applications over non-existing ones :-). In our case, it's just not feasible to rewrite a 600,000 line C++ app in Java with limited man power, let alone keep that rewrite in sync with the regular version :-).

Not to forget that in reality, very often Java programs still need to be adapted to new platforms ...

Quote:

Of course, most (if not all?) of the Android devices on the market are
ARM right now, but if that ever changes...

... then one also provides versions for the new CPUs Smile

Cheers,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

Well, surely Nokia JVM does it (I cannot prove that, I am no longer a Nokia employee)

And Sun HotSpot does it as well:

http://java.sun.com/javame/reference/docs/cldc-hi-2.0-web/doc/release/CLDC_HI-release-notes.html#jazelle



On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Alan Carr wrote:
Quote:
Paulo,

which JDKs you know of use Jazelle support?  I'm not aware of any active ones... I've searched before but came up empty!

-Alan


On 1/14/2010 2:25 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
I don't have any prejudice against Java, but does anyone know if Google is ever going to add JIT to Dalvik?

Without it, I wonder how fast you can really code games for Android.

My mobile phone has Symbian and the ARM processor provides Jazelle support, so althought the games aren't as
fast as pure native ones, they are quite fast already.

Now I wonder about Android phones.



On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Max Horn wrote:
Quote:

Am 14.01.2010 um 22:40 schrieb Simon Roby:

Quote:
Using JNI on Android is generally discouraged by Google though,
because Android was designed so that the application layer is
independent of the CPU architecture. By bypassing the managed VM and
running native code (ie. what JNI does) you are violating that
principle.

Sure, but it's either that, or not running on that platform at all for the majority of existing programs. So, while it may not be "pure" with regards to this principle, it's still a great way for many apps to be ported to Android -- I certainly prefer impure applications over non-existing ones :-). In our case, it's just not feasible to rewrite a 600,000 line C++ app in Java with limited man power, let alone keep that rewrite in sync with the regular version :-).

Not to forget that in reality, very often Java programs still need to be adapted to new platforms ...

Quote:

Of course, most (if not all?) of the Android devices on the market are
ARM right now, but if that ever changes...

... then one also provides versions for the new CPUs Smile

Cheers,
Max
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Marcel Wysocki
Guest

On 01/14/2010 11:25 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
I don't have any prejudice against Java, but does anyone know if Google is ever going to add JIT to Dalvik?

from wikipedia:
Dalvik currently has no just-in-time compiler, although there is an experimental JIT compiler available.

and its certainly on the roadmap:
http://groups.google.com/group/android-platform/browse_thread/thread/331d5f5636f5f532
Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

Interesting reading, thanks for the pointers.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Marcel Wysocki wrote:
Quote:
On 01/14/2010 11:25 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
I don't have any prejudice against Java, but does anyone know if Google is ever going to add JIT to Dalvik?


from wikipedia:
Dalvik currently has no just-in-time compiler, although there is an experimental JIT compiler available.

and its certainly on the roadmap:
http://groups.google.com/group/android-platform/browse_thread/thread/331d5f5636f5f532


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sdl on android
Tiresias


Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 6
Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ?
(has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?)
Thanks
Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Simon Roby
Guest

Would SDL really make sense on Android? Last time I checked you're not
supposed to write native C/C++ apps on Android.

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ?
(has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?)
Thanks
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Jonny D


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Posts: 932
Isn't there a Java binding for SDL?

Jonny D


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Simon Roby wrote:
Quote:
Would SDL really make sense on Android? Last time I checked you're not
supposed to write native C/C++ apps on Android.


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ?
(has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?)
Thanks


Quote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

You know there is always this urge to stay in C land even though the world moves forward... Smile

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Simon Roby wrote:
Quote:
Would SDL really make sense on Android? Last time I checked you're not
supposed to write native C/C++ apps on Android.


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ?
(has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?)
Thanks


Quote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Bill Kendrick
Guest

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 08:58:22AM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
You know there is always this urge to stay in C land even though the world
moves forward... Smile

Yes. Forward. On top of C.

Wink

-bill!
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Tiresias


Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 6
well when you have 250K lines of C++ and C you dont want to move forward Smile

so anyones know about any existing port?
Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

I think someone did an early port, but I could not find any reference to it.


On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
well when you have 250K lines of C++ and C you dont want to move forward

so anyones know about any existing port?


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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Marcel Wysocki
Guest

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sdl+android

On 03/31/2010 11:02 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
I think someone did an early port, but I could not find any reference to it.


On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
well when you have 250K lines of C++ and C you dont want to move forward

so anyones know about any existing port?


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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
David Olofson
Guest

On Wednesday 31 March 2010, at 08.58.22, Paulo Pinto
wrote:
Quote:
You know there is always this urge to stay in C land even though the world
moves forward... Smile

That (because you don't want to rewrite massive applications for what should
be a simple port), and the fact that we're talking about a VM (*without* JIT,
so far), running on relatively slow hardware.

Anything that isn't basically tiles + sprites and very simple logic is going
to mean trouble, unless you compile it to native code. My rough ballpark
estimate would be that native code on these devices runs about as fast as
Java, Lua or similar (non-JIT VM, that is) on your average PC.

You can implement a modern 3D shooter pretty much all in Lua on a PC, so...
You just need nice engines/APIs for rendering, audio etc, so you can keep the
VM away from the "pixels and samples" level.


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

I am aware of it.

Actually I think that C and C++ will still be around for a very long time, many more years than any of us.

It doesn't change the fact that the future is full with higher level languages.

Even though I don't work on the games industry I already had the oportunity to see several known studios,
that are at least porting their tools to such languages. With some, having only the game engine itself written in C/C++,
with the rest with some other language, like Lua for example.

There is an alpha version of Dalvik with JIT support, but I don't understand why Google hasn't provided since the beginning.

And existing code bases always play a big role, even Google has done a presentation at GDC 2010 about game development
with the NDK.

Now if I only could put my hands on a C++11 compiler. Smile




On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:56 PM, David Olofson wrote:
Quote:
On Wednesday 31 March 2010, at 08.58.22, Paulo Pinto
wrote:
Quote:
You know there is always this urge to stay in C land even though the world
moves forward... Smile

That (because you don't want to rewrite massive applications for what should
be a simple port), and the fact that we're talking about a VM (*without* JIT,
so far), running on relatively slow hardware.

Anything that isn't basically tiles + sprites and very simple logic is going
to mean trouble, unless you compile it to native code. My rough ballpark
estimate would be that native code on these devices runs about as fast as
Java, Lua or similar (non-JIT VM, that is) on your average PC.

You can implement a modern 3D shooter pretty much all in Lua on a PC, so...
You just need nice engines/APIs for rendering, audio etc, so you can keep the
VM away from the "pixels and samples" level.


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
|  http://olofson.net   http://kobodeluxe.com   http://audiality.org  |
|  http://eel.olofson.net  http://zeespace.net   http://reologica.se  |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Loïc LAMBERT
Guest

SDL is listed among the android external projects :
http://source.android.com/projects

SDL may be used for the OS itself or maybe just for the simulator
browse here :
https://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/prebuilt.git;a=tree
and here :
https://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/qemu.git;a=tree

for some SDL stuff.

I don't know if you can run native code under android

Good luck,
Loïc


Le 31/03/2010 00:00, Simon Roby a écrit :
Quote:
Would SDL really make sense on Android? Last time I checked you're not
supposed to write native C/C++ apps on Android.

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ?
(has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?)
Thanks
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
David Olofson
Guest

On Wednesday 31 March 2010, at 16.25.37, Paulo Pinto
wrote:
Quote:
I am aware of it.

Actually I think that C and C++ will still be around for a very long time,
many more years than any of us.

Indeed. In fact, C is pretty much lowest common denominator, as it's about as
close to machine code you get without going CPU specific.

(In terms of what machine code can theoretically be generated, C++ doesn't add
all that much, but as long as we're pure, portable C - ie no C99, GNU
extensions etc - C++ does offer some tools that can be handy in VMs and
compilers...)


Quote:
It doesn't change the fact that the future is full with higher level
languages.

...which could, be implemented using VMs written in C, or compiled to native
code via C using translators. Wink

I'm doing the former with EEL (roughly as fast as Lua), and I'm going for the
latter as a first quick and portable way of turning it into native code when
run-time compilation isn't required. JIT is a big job, and either way, it
doesn't mix very well with realtime constraints, so I'm not sure it's an
option for EEL at all... ("Just In Time before the application starts" would
work, though - but that's just a traditional native compiler that happens to
be built into the run-time library of the language.)


[...]
Quote:
There is an alpha version of Dalvik with JIT support, but I don't
understand why Google hasn't provided since the beginning.

Like I said, a JIT is a big job, and it's pretty hairy stuff to get right -
and you *really* want a VM in a production system to work correctly...
Meanwhile, time is money, and all that stuff. :-)


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Simon Roby
Guest

That doesn't mean much when the whole underlying APIs are all Java.

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 19:38, Jonathan Dearborn wrote:
Quote:
Isn't there a Java binding for SDL?
Jonny D

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Simon Roby wrote:
Quote:

Would SDL really make sense on Android? Last time I checked you're not
supposed to write native C/C++ apps on Android.

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41, Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ?
(has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?)
Thanks
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
David Olofson
Guest

On Friday 02 April 2010, at 18.30.34, Simon Roby wrote:
Quote:
That doesn't mean much when the whole underlying APIs are all Java.

Android is not all Java. At least, the Linux kernel is native code, and so is
it's drivers, the VM (obviously!), various "system" services - and I'm quite
sure the OpenGL ES implementations (whether hardware or software) are native
code too. It would just be ridiculously slow - even on desktop hardware - if
it wasn't implemented like this!

Either way, rewriting an application in Java, or even just porting to
different APIs, is quite som work. A potential showstopper unless you can
realistically expect to make a good profit from the conversion. Guess why so
many applications are available for one platform only...


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Jonny D


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Posts: 932
Monopolistic practices?  Wink

Jonny D


On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:47 AM, David Olofson wrote:
Quote:
On Friday 02 April 2010, at 18.30.34, Simon Roby wrote:
Quote:
That doesn't mean much when the whole underlying APIs are all Java.


Android is not all Java. At least, the Linux kernel is native code, and so is
it's drivers, the VM (obviously!), various "system" services - and I'm quite
sure the OpenGL ES implementations (whether hardware or software) are native
code too. It would just be ridiculously slow - even on desktop hardware - if
it wasn't implemented like this!

Either way, rewriting an application in Java, or even just porting to
different APIs, is quite som work. A potential showstopper unless you can
realistically expect to make a good profit from the conversion. Guess why so
many applications are available for one platform only...


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
|  http://olofson.net   http://kobodeluxe.com   http://audiality.org  |
|  http://eel.olofson.net  http://zeespace.net   http://reologica.se  |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
David Olofson
Guest

On Friday 02 April 2010, at 19.31.03, Jonathan Dearborn
wrote:
Quote:
Monopolistic practices? Wink

Well, yes - but if you can be one of few players on a smaller market as an
extra bonus, why not?

To great extent, we (developers) have ourselves to blame for buying into this
BS too easily. Just don't use a single platform API if there are viable
alternatives - and if there aren't, it's still a bad idea to "surrender" and
allow the API and it's datatypes infect the whole application.


Quote:
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:47 AM, David Olofson wrote:
[...]
Quote:
Quote:
Guess why so many applications are available for one platform only...


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org |
| http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

Actually rewriting applications seldom make sense, on the other hand it used to be quite
common on the gaming industry and I bet it is still done.

Many studios focus in just one platform and outsource the work for other platforms. How
the game is then developed is the contractor's problem.

--
Paulo

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 6:47 PM, David Olofson wrote:
Quote:
On Friday 02 April 2010, at 18.30.34, Simon Roby wrote:
Quote:
That doesn't mean much when the whole underlying APIs are all Java.


Android is not all Java. At least, the Linux kernel is native code, and so is
it's drivers, the VM (obviously!), various "system" services - and I'm quite
sure the OpenGL ES implementations (whether hardware or software) are native
code too. It would just be ridiculously slow - even on desktop hardware - if
it wasn't implemented like this!

Either way, rewriting an application in Java, or even just porting to
different APIs, is quite som work. A potential showstopper unless you can
realistically expect to make a good profit from the conversion. Guess why so
many applications are available for one platform only...


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
|  http://olofson.net   http://kobodeluxe.com   http://audiality.org  |
|  http://eel.olofson.net  http://zeespace.net   http://reologica.se  |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Rainer Deyke
Guest

On 4/2/2010 14:07, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
Actually rewriting applications seldom make sense, on the other hand it used
to be quite
common on the gaming industry and I bet it is still done.

When your game is 95% content (i.e. art assets, level design, text,
speech, music, etc.) and 5% code, rewriting that 5% for another platform
can still make sense.


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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Paulo Pinto
Guest

The problem is that most times you also have to handle those 95%.

You cannot just take all content for target platform A and use it as is, for target
platform B.

- Different resolutions
- Different compression methods
- Different access speeds
- Different memory limits
- Different cache hits
- and so on

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Rainer Deyke wrote:
Quote:
On 4/2/2010 14:07, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
Actually rewriting applications seldom make sense, on the other hand it used
to be quite
common on the gaming industry and I bet it is still done.


When your game is 95% content (i.e. art assets, level design, text,
speech, music, etc.) and 5% code, rewriting that 5% for another platform
can still make sense.


--
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Rainer Deyke
Guest

On 4/2/2010 14:51, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
The problem is that most times you also have to handle those 95%.

You cannot just take all content for target platform A and use it as is, for
target
platform B.

That's an orthogonal issue to code rewrite. If platform B cannot handle
the content, then you need to adjust the content regardless of whether
you reuse or rewrite the game code.


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Nathaniel J Fries


Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 444
You guys are straying from the topic at hand, here.

There is an Android port, which I assume runs on non-rooted devices, using OpenGLES for rendering. However, this is a 1.2 port, and doesn't build at all with NDK version 1 (or version 1.5, whichever). It's not officially supported by Sam to my knowledge.
SDL 1.3 is what should be ported to Android, since that would make it an even parallel to the iPhone version of SDL. Configure should check for OpenGL headers in the NDK and not build the OpenGLES backend if it's not there.

I think the number of Android devices in frequent use may end up greater than the the number of iPhones in frequent use in the next couple of years, especially since the market for the iPhone hasn't changed much whereas newer and better phones equipped with Android will continue to be released by all major carriers for quite some time. I could even see it being common for netbooks, pdas, and other common small devices; which would make it a very important target for SDL.
I think this should be an important GSoC project for this year, or next year at the latest (assuming someone doesn't implement it on their own first).

I really wish my job didn't take so much of my time -- I would love to port SDL to the Android, and even have an older device to test it on. But I don't have the time to learn how to use JNI effectively, learn Android's Java APIs, and all that... at least not in a short enough timeframe to retain enough to write a port.
Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
Bill Kendrick
Guest

On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:07:52PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
Actually rewriting applications seldom make sense, on the other hand it
used to be quite
common on the gaming industry and I bet it is still done.

Definitely done in the mobile space. Even when your target is the same
platform (e.g., all BREW or all J2ME phones), you end up tweaking your
code and building various versions to work around the bugs and limitations
of all the handsets.

If you're lucky and have someone uber-smart on your team, you can end
up with a cross-platform system where you target a thin API layer
(kinda like what we around here do with SDL!), and have the app
mostly-automatically-ported between two different platforms (i.e., the
same codebase running on J2ME _and_ BREW!)


Quote:
Many studios focus in just one platform and outsource the work for other
platforms. How
the game is then developed is the contractor's problem.

Happened a lot in the early days, too. "Game XYZ - By Original Programmer
(Atari 800 version by Some Other Guy)"

In some cases, the ports inherited limitations in the original platform
(like Apple II games ported to Atari and Commodore and had almost no color),
which always made me sad. Smile

-bill!
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ???
David Olofson
Guest

On Friday 02 April 2010, at 22.07.52, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Quote:
Actually rewriting applications seldom make sense, on the other hand it
used to be quite common on the gaming industry and I bet it is still done.

Well, that was back in the days when you even had to implement the game logic
in assembly language not to slow the game down too much. :-)

Then again, something close to that level of optimization is still valid for
high volume products (what you pay extra in development costs, you save on the
hardware in each device), and products that absolutely need to keep power
consumption minimal. Embedded electronics, handheld devices etc...


Quote:
Many studios focus in just one platform and outsource the work for other
platforms. How the game is then developed is the contractor's problem.

Indeed - but if you look at Linux ports of Windows games, for example, you'll
find that OpenGL games are (or at least were) ported a lot sooner than
Direct3D games. Apparently, the Linux market is now big enough that converting
Direct3D games can be worthwhile too, despite the extra work.


--
//David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate

.--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---.
| http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org |
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