Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
JeZ-l-Lee
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Hi,
Any plans to port SDL to Google's Android OS used in SmartPhones? Just wondering, as there is an iPhone port already. Thanks! Jesse _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Sam Lantinga
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There is apparently a port of SDL 1.2 to it, and I've asked the author
if he's interested in porting 1.3, but I haven't heard back. On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Jesse Palser wrote:
-- -Sam Lantinga, Founder and President, Galaxy Gameworks LLC _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Bill Kendrick
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On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 09:27:37PM -0800, Sam Lantinga wrote:
Based on what people know of the Android platform, how difficult does it seem to port an SDL app to an Android device? Is it possible to actually run an _app_ under the NDK (native development kit), or is the NDK really just for porting libraries (e.g., so you do your crazy math in C rather than in JITless Java) -bill! _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-15-ndk-release-1.html The official language is still Java. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Max Horn
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Am 13.01.2010 um 19:27 schrieb Paulo Pinto:
Well, there exists a (currently unofficial) port of ScummVM to Android. Since ScummVM is C++, it apparently *is* possible. See also <http://sites.google.com/site/scummvmandroid/>. Cheers, Max _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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I don't have any android experience, but wouldn't this only run in rooted devices most likely?
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Max Horn wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Marcel Wysocki
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On 01/13/2010 09:25 PM, Max Horn wrote:
jni to start it. thats really the only way to get c/c++ apps running on the android, unless its rooted of course _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Sam Lantinga
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People are actually using SDL on the Android right now:
http://jiggawatt.org/badc0de/android/index.html On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:25 PM, nfries88 wrote:
-- -Sam Lantinga, Founder and President, Galaxy Gameworks LLC _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Marcel Wysocki
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On 01/14/2010 06:01 AM, Sam Lantinga wrote:
http://gimite.net/en/index.php?Run%20native%20executable%20in%20Android%20App this is another approach to run native apps on android, didnt test it yet but looks promising and should work on unmodified phones too _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Max Horn
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Am 13.01.2010 um 21:37 schrieb Paulo Pinto:
No. ScummVM is available through the Android store for any android phone, not just rooted ones. As others explained, the trick is to use JNI; this is in fact explained in the FAQ of the page I gave the link to. Bye, Max _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Simon Roby
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Using JNI on Android is generally discouraged by Google though,
because Android was designed so that the application layer is independent of the CPU architecture. By bypassing the managed VM and running native code (ie. what JNI does) you are violating that principle. Of course, most (if not all?) of the Android devices on the market are ARM right now, but if that ever changes... On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 18:25, nfries88 wrote:
-- -- - SR _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Max Horn
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Am 14.01.2010 um 22:40 schrieb Simon Roby:
Sure, but it's either that, or not running on that platform at all for the majority of existing programs. So, while it may not be "pure" with regards to this principle, it's still a great way for many apps to be ported to Android -- I certainly prefer impure applications over non- existing ones :-). In our case, it's just not feasible to rewrite a 600,000 line C++ app in Java with limited man power, let alone keep that rewrite in sync with the regular version :-). Not to forget that in reality, very often Java programs still need to be adapted to new platforms ...
... then one also provides versions for the new CPUs Cheers, Max _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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I don't have any prejudice against Java, but does anyone know if Google is ever going to add JIT to Dalvik?
Without it, I wonder how fast you can really code games for Android. My mobile phone has Symbian and the ARM processor provides Jazelle support, so althought the games aren't as fast as pure native ones, they are quite fast already. Now I wonder about Android phones. On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Max Horn wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Alan Carr
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Paulo,
which JDKs you know of use Jazelle support? I'm not aware of any active ones... I've searched before but came up empty! -Alan On 1/14/2010 2:25 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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Well, surely Nokia JVM does it (I cannot prove that, I am no longer a Nokia employee)
And Sun HotSpot does it as well: http://java.sun.com/javame/reference/docs/cldc-hi-2.0-web/doc/release/CLDC_HI-release-notes.html#jazelle On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Alan Carr wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Marcel Wysocki
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On 01/14/2010 11:25 PM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Dalvik currently has no just-in-time compiler, although there is an experimental JIT compiler available. and its certainly on the roadmap: http://groups.google.com/group/android-platform/browse_thread/thread/331d5f5636f5f532 |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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Interesting reading, thanks for the pointers.
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Marcel Wysocki wrote:
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sdl on android |
Tiresias
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Hello
so whats the status on SDL on Android OS/NDK ? (has it been ported and does it support using opengl with SDL ?) Thanks |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Simon Roby
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Would SDL really make sense on Android? Last time I checked you're not
supposed to write native C/C++ apps on Android. On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41, Tiresias wrote:
-- -- - SR _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Jonny D
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Isn't there a Java binding for SDL?
Jonny D On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Simon Roby wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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You know there is always this urge to stay in C land even though the world moves forward...
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Simon Roby wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Bill Kendrick
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On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 08:58:22AM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Yes. Forward. On top of C. -bill! _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Tiresias
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well when you have 250K lines of C++ and C you dont want to move forward
so anyones know about any existing port? |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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I think someone did an early port, but I could not find any reference to it.
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Tiresias wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Marcel Wysocki
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sdl+android
On 03/31/2010 11:02 AM, Paulo Pinto wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
David Olofson
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On Wednesday 31 March 2010, at 08.58.22, Paulo Pinto
wrote:
That (because you don't want to rewrite massive applications for what should be a simple port), and the fact that we're talking about a VM (*without* JIT, so far), running on relatively slow hardware. Anything that isn't basically tiles + sprites and very simple logic is going to mean trouble, unless you compile it to native code. My rough ballpark estimate would be that native code on these devices runs about as fast as Java, Lua or similar (non-JIT VM, that is) on your average PC. You can implement a modern 3D shooter pretty much all in Lua on a PC, so... You just need nice engines/APIs for rendering, audio etc, so you can keep the VM away from the "pixels and samples" level. -- //David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate .--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---. | http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org | | http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se | '---------------------------------------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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I am aware of it.
Actually I think that C and C++ will still be around for a very long time, many more years than any of us. It doesn't change the fact that the future is full with higher level languages. Even though I don't work on the games industry I already had the oportunity to see several known studios, that are at least porting their tools to such languages. With some, having only the game engine itself written in C/C++, with the rest with some other language, like Lua for example. There is an alpha version of Dalvik with JIT support, but I don't understand why Google hasn't provided since the beginning. And existing code bases always play a big role, even Google has done a presentation at GDC 2010 about game development with the NDK. Now if I only could put my hands on a C++11 compiler. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:56 PM, David Olofson wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Loïc LAMBERT
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SDL is listed among the android external projects :
http://source.android.com/projects SDL may be used for the OS itself or maybe just for the simulator browse here : https://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/prebuilt.git;a=tree and here : https://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/qemu.git;a=tree for some SDL stuff. I don't know if you can run native code under android Good luck, Loïc Le 31/03/2010 00:00, Simon Roby a écrit :
SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
David Olofson
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On Wednesday 31 March 2010, at 16.25.37, Paulo Pinto
wrote:
Indeed. In fact, C is pretty much lowest common denominator, as it's about as close to machine code you get without going CPU specific. (In terms of what machine code can theoretically be generated, C++ doesn't add all that much, but as long as we're pure, portable C - ie no C99, GNU extensions etc - C++ does offer some tools that can be handy in VMs and compilers...)
...which could, be implemented using VMs written in C, or compiled to native code via C using translators. I'm doing the former with EEL (roughly as fast as Lua), and I'm going for the latter as a first quick and portable way of turning it into native code when run-time compilation isn't required. JIT is a big job, and either way, it doesn't mix very well with realtime constraints, so I'm not sure it's an option for EEL at all... ("Just In Time before the application starts" would work, though - but that's just a traditional native compiler that happens to be built into the run-time library of the language.) [...]
Like I said, a JIT is a big job, and it's pretty hairy stuff to get right - and you *really* want a VM in a production system to work correctly... Meanwhile, time is money, and all that stuff. :-) -- //David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate .--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---. | http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org | | http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se | '---------------------------------------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Simon Roby
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That doesn't mean much when the whole underlying APIs are all Java.
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 19:38, Jonathan Dearborn wrote:
-- -- - SR _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
David Olofson
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On Friday 02 April 2010, at 18.30.34, Simon Roby wrote:
Android is not all Java. At least, the Linux kernel is native code, and so is it's drivers, the VM (obviously!), various "system" services - and I'm quite sure the OpenGL ES implementations (whether hardware or software) are native code too. It would just be ridiculously slow - even on desktop hardware - if it wasn't implemented like this! Either way, rewriting an application in Java, or even just porting to different APIs, is quite som work. A potential showstopper unless you can realistically expect to make a good profit from the conversion. Guess why so many applications are available for one platform only... -- //David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate .--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---. | http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org | | http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se | '---------------------------------------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Jonny D
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Monopolistic practices?
Jonny D On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:47 AM, David Olofson wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
David Olofson
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On Friday 02 April 2010, at 19.31.03, Jonathan Dearborn
wrote:
Well, yes - but if you can be one of few players on a smaller market as an extra bonus, why not? To great extent, we (developers) have ourselves to blame for buying into this BS too easily. Just don't use a single platform API if there are viable alternatives - and if there aren't, it's still a bad idea to "surrender" and allow the API and it's datatypes infect the whole application.
-- //David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate .--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---. | http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org | | http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se | '---------------------------------------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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Actually rewriting applications seldom make sense, on the other hand it used to be quite
common on the gaming industry and I bet it is still done. Many studios focus in just one platform and outsource the work for other platforms. How the game is then developed is the contractor's problem. -- Paulo On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 6:47 PM, David Olofson wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Rainer Deyke
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On 4/2/2010 14:07, Paulo Pinto wrote:
When your game is 95% content (i.e. art assets, level design, text, speech, music, etc.) and 5% code, rewriting that 5% for another platform can still make sense. -- Rainer Deyke - _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Paulo Pinto
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The problem is that most times you also have to handle those 95%.
You cannot just take all content for target platform A and use it as is, for target platform B. - Different resolutions - Different compression methods - Different access speeds - Different memory limits - Different cache hits - and so on On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Rainer Deyke wrote:
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Rainer Deyke
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On 4/2/2010 14:51, Paulo Pinto wrote:
That's an orthogonal issue to code rewrite. If platform B cannot handle the content, then you need to adjust the content regardless of whether you reuse or rewrite the game code. -- Rainer Deyke - _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Nathaniel J Fries
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You guys are straying from the topic at hand, here.
There is an Android port, which I assume runs on non-rooted devices, using OpenGLES for rendering. However, this is a 1.2 port, and doesn't build at all with NDK version 1 (or version 1.5, whichever). It's not officially supported by Sam to my knowledge. SDL 1.3 is what should be ported to Android, since that would make it an even parallel to the iPhone version of SDL. Configure should check for OpenGL headers in the NDK and not build the OpenGLES backend if it's not there. I think the number of Android devices in frequent use may end up greater than the the number of iPhones in frequent use in the next couple of years, especially since the market for the iPhone hasn't changed much whereas newer and better phones equipped with Android will continue to be released by all major carriers for quite some time. I could even see it being common for netbooks, pdas, and other common small devices; which would make it a very important target for SDL. I think this should be an important GSoC project for this year, or next year at the latest (assuming someone doesn't implement it on their own first). I really wish my job didn't take so much of my time -- I would love to port SDL to the Android, and even have an older device to test it on. But I don't have the time to learn how to use JNI effectively, learn Android's Java APIs, and all that... at least not in a short enough timeframe to retain enough to write a port. |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
Bill Kendrick
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On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 10:07:52PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Definitely done in the mobile space. Even when your target is the same platform (e.g., all BREW or all J2ME phones), you end up tweaking your code and building various versions to work around the bugs and limitations of all the handsets. If you're lucky and have someone uber-smart on your team, you can end up with a cross-platform system where you target a thin API layer (kinda like what we around here do with SDL!), and have the app mostly-automatically-ported between two different platforms (i.e., the same codebase running on J2ME _and_ BREW!)
Happened a lot in the early days, too. "Game XYZ - By Original Programmer (Atari 800 version by Some Other Guy)" In some cases, the ports inherited limitations in the original platform (like Apple II games ported to Atari and Commodore and had almost no color), which always made me sad. -bill! _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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Google's Mobile Android OS - SDL ??? |
David Olofson
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On Friday 02 April 2010, at 22.07.52, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Well, that was back in the days when you even had to implement the game logic in assembly language not to slow the game down too much. :-) Then again, something close to that level of optimization is still valid for high volume products (what you pay extra in development costs, you save on the hardware in each device), and products that absolutely need to keep power consumption minimal. Embedded electronics, handheld devices etc...
Indeed - but if you look at Linux ports of Windows games, for example, you'll find that OpenGL games are (or at least were) ported a lot sooner than Direct3D games. Apparently, the Linux market is now big enough that converting Direct3D games can be worthwhile too, despite the extra work. -- //David Olofson - Developer, Artist, Open Source Advocate .--- Games, examples, libraries, scripting, sound, music, graphics ---. | http://olofson.net http://kobodeluxe.com http://audiality.org | | http://eel.olofson.net http://zeespace.net http://reologica.se | '---------------------------------------------------------------------' _______________________________________________ SDL mailing list http://lists.libsdl.org/listinfo.cgi/sdl-libsdl.org |
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